On a listserve that I am on a number of people were talking about the Black in America special that aired. I read everyone's comments. This blog will start with my first comment and the rest is a dialouge that occur between one other person:
ME:
I have a few thoughts.
1) Because my research deals with imagery in media I believe there needs to be balance. But often times when Blacks say that they want balance, they would actually prefer 80% “positive” and 20% “negative”. But what often happens is Blacks don’t like to face some of the ugliness that comes with being Black in America. What is deemed “positive” is all the values that are associated with white middle class standards. Why is that? Why haven’t we re-evaluated our measuring stick? I have heard many people say “we shouldn’t have our dirty laundry aired for the world (white world) to see.” Well where are we to air this laundry? I heard someone say in a workshop or lecture. But one of the issues with that, is that that solution follows a middle class standard. One the issue with the Black Civil Rights movement was that it was a middle class movement. When would, let’s say, the single parent father with two kids, or the woman with health problems have times to go to a seminar? How many whites would you know take time out of there day to go to a seminar on Blacks and it didn’t pertain to their jobs? How often have you gone to a workshop or seminar on a whim? Workshops often times don’t work. As a director once said, film is the new literature meaning people get most (if not all) of their information from television. I believe this is the best medium to grasp a large and diverse audience. Then one could argue to put the special on BET but that doesn’t mean non-blacks don’t watch BET. I don’t understand how people think there is some Black inside track of communication where we can discuss issues. Even if we had seminars where would they be? What city? Would it be free? How do other people weigh in on the issues? If we are going to offer solutions we need to think about the logistics. As for balance within the program, I don’t really understand why people keep saying there isn’t a balance. In the 1st episode, they talked about the family would owned the company multiple times. They used them as a case study to talk about the increase of Black businesses, increase of Blacks in college since Brown vs. Board. They talked about the little brother is a pastor and how they acquired the business from the wife’s father which shows a legacy of Black entrepreneurship. In the second section the talked about Michael Eric Dyson’s history and the man with the three sons. The woman with “marry your baby daddy day” trying to get Black families together and the couple who were a part of that program. They showed black people doing their best like the black man trying to find a low income job, the single father with the two kids and single working multiple jobs. The “negative” situations were briefly shown. The boy who didn’t go back to high school and the pregnant woman with twins and the dead-beat baby daddy. They also brought up some interesting things that I wasn’t excepting (I was excepting a 2008 Moyihan Report), the research on blacks having less of a chance in attaining a low-income job and the social issues with Black skin color (light-skinned or dark skinned) and life chances. Why do we so easily forget the positive when it scares us in the face? I think don’t like to face the negativity. Let’s face and find solutions.
2) Paying kids to learn. I’ve worked with “at-risk”, “under-privileged” youth and it is interesting on some of their take on education. I have had students tell me, “I need to drop out of school so I can go work” they don’t want to take a shower in cold water because the electric/gas bill wasn’t paid. They are tired of moving. For me, my mom was the first in our family to go to college. I remember going to class with my mom at UF. I saw that my mom made more money that most of the low-income people in my family. For me, I could see that good grades paid off. What about the student that doesn’t? What about the student that does, but can’t worry about getting an A on the next test because the food stamps were stopped about the department job and family services found out the mother had a job thus no longer meeting the 142% below the poverty level requirement (and in many states like Ohio 142% is NOT an exaggeration.) Statistics show (and I believe it was mentioned in the segment) that Blacks students being to become disinterested in school at 4th grade. Therefore the experiment is happening at just the right age. We have to stop thinking that we can or will think like us. We have to think beyond what we want and what we think is right. It would be great if all people initially saw education as some gift that keeps on giving but it is challenging when the gift isn’t easily attainable or the benefits it’s supposed to reap.
3) Is marriage necessary? What conclusions are being drawn? Who says marriage equals stability with the 50% divorce rate? Who decided this was necessary? Where is the study that talks about Black men being absent from homes? Is that conclusion drawn by the number of unmarried couples? If so, that is very problematic.
1) Because my research deals with imagery in media I believe there needs to be balance. But often times when Blacks say that they want balance, they would actually prefer 80% “positive” and 20% “negative”. But what often happens is Blacks don’t like to face some of the ugliness that comes with being Black in America. What is deemed “positive” is all the values that are associated with white middle class standards. Why is that? Why haven’t we re-evaluated our measuring stick? I have heard many people say “we shouldn’t have our dirty laundry aired for the world (white world) to see.” Well where are we to air this laundry? I heard someone say in a workshop or lecture. But one of the issues with that, is that that solution follows a middle class standard. One the issue with the Black Civil Rights movement was that it was a middle class movement. When would, let’s say, the single parent father with two kids, or the woman with health problems have times to go to a seminar? How many whites would you know take time out of there day to go to a seminar on Blacks and it didn’t pertain to their jobs? How often have you gone to a workshop or seminar on a whim? Workshops often times don’t work. As a director once said, film is the new literature meaning people get most (if not all) of their information from television. I believe this is the best medium to grasp a large and diverse audience. Then one could argue to put the special on BET but that doesn’t mean non-blacks don’t watch BET. I don’t understand how people think there is some Black inside track of communication where we can discuss issues. Even if we had seminars where would they be? What city? Would it be free? How do other people weigh in on the issues? If we are going to offer solutions we need to think about the logistics. As for balance within the program, I don’t really understand why people keep saying there isn’t a balance. In the 1st episode, they talked about the family would owned the company multiple times. They used them as a case study to talk about the increase of Black businesses, increase of Blacks in college since Brown vs. Board. They talked about the little brother is a pastor and how they acquired the business from the wife’s father which shows a legacy of Black entrepreneurship. In the second section the talked about Michael Eric Dyson’s history and the man with the three sons. The woman with “marry your baby daddy day” trying to get Black families together and the couple who were a part of that program. They showed black people doing their best like the black man trying to find a low income job, the single father with the two kids and single working multiple jobs. The “negative” situations were briefly shown. The boy who didn’t go back to high school and the pregnant woman with twins and the dead-beat baby daddy. They also brought up some interesting things that I wasn’t excepting (I was excepting a 2008 Moyihan Report), the research on blacks having less of a chance in attaining a low-income job and the social issues with Black skin color (light-skinned or dark skinned) and life chances. Why do we so easily forget the positive when it scares us in the face? I think don’t like to face the negativity. Let’s face and find solutions.
2) Paying kids to learn. I’ve worked with “at-risk”, “under-privileged” youth and it is interesting on some of their take on education. I have had students tell me, “I need to drop out of school so I can go work” they don’t want to take a shower in cold water because the electric/gas bill wasn’t paid. They are tired of moving. For me, my mom was the first in our family to go to college. I remember going to class with my mom at UF. I saw that my mom made more money that most of the low-income people in my family. For me, I could see that good grades paid off. What about the student that doesn’t? What about the student that does, but can’t worry about getting an A on the next test because the food stamps were stopped about the department job and family services found out the mother had a job thus no longer meeting the 142% below the poverty level requirement (and in many states like Ohio 142% is NOT an exaggeration.) Statistics show (and I believe it was mentioned in the segment) that Blacks students being to become disinterested in school at 4th grade. Therefore the experiment is happening at just the right age. We have to stop thinking that we can or will think like us. We have to think beyond what we want and what we think is right. It would be great if all people initially saw education as some gift that keeps on giving but it is challenging when the gift isn’t easily attainable or the benefits it’s supposed to reap.
3) Is marriage necessary? What conclusions are being drawn? Who says marriage equals stability with the 50% divorce rate? Who decided this was necessary? Where is the study that talks about Black men being absent from homes? Is that conclusion drawn by the number of unmarried couples? If so, that is very problematic.
RESPONSE:
Wow Melissa. You spoke on so many things that I thought about but you put an new spin on them. I didn't see the entire first episode so I cannot comment on it too much. I do want to respond to your comment about education. Both you and Talaina pointed out reasons supporting the initiative that are in line with the intended objective. I have spoken to a few people about this same topic and people seem to leave out the unintended consequences. For exampleLets say (and this is going on in several counties) you are working at a job that you love dearly and making good money. One day your boss comes in and says, we aren't going to pay you anymore. What would you do in this situation? Stay at the job or leave?An added twist. Say at this job you could not quit because of a contract and there would be sever consequences if you did leave. What would you do?Now think of this situation from the perspective of someone else, an Average American person and a low income person. If you could not leave and you were no longer getting paid, would you still be motivated to work? Would your performance level be the same?I posed this situation to you to ask, as I did with Talaina but didn't get a response. In this experiment every child will NOT get a financial incentive, so what happens with the kids that are not getting the money? would this encourage more cheating and steeling? So as Talaina mentioned, this initiative mirrors real life especially in the sense that this initiative has the potential to create a social order similar to society. The haves and the have nots, low middle and high class. Can you imagine what the social setting of the school would be, and how the safety of the kids could be challenged? Now it could be a good social experiment and these kids are very aware of the social structure that exists is society, but is school an appropriate place for them to experience this first hand too, like adults do with actual money, not just what kids wear, parents drive, etc.The intention of the program is to motivate kids to learn, but are they really learning? What happens when these kids go to a different school? Going through my education programs they always warn us about incentives. they should be meaningful, should be something the kids want, and should not be something that if they don't get the incentive they will not perform the task. Think of Pavlov's dogs, when they weren't getting the food, they stopped salivating. When the treats were taken away the behavior was modified.there is a lot of research out there, and was briefly mentioned on the program, that these types of reward systems do not work all of the time, and the ration of working to not working is in favor of not working. Jeffrey Pheffer wrote a book called What Were They Thinking and in it he talks about companies who cut salaries and benefits. He documented the risks and the ineffectiveness of doing this. (I bring this up to illustrate what could happen if the incentive isn't consistent and continuous). In this book he also talks about the effects of reward systems and how they work and where they fail. Deborah Stone wrote Policy Paradox And Political Reason and in this text she too spoke about the potential dangers with incentives and rewards programs.Again I am not disagreeing with your opinion on why it works and why it would be beneficial, I just feel there are several pieces of this puzzle that haven't been addressed in our discussions.
ME:
Well, I don't think anything is a guranteed solution. First, I was rewarded for good grades but I didn't stop striving for them. When you received an allowance for cleaning your room, after you left home did you stop cleaning? And if money isn't a good idea and won't achieve anything, how well have gold stars done in the hood? He is very careful to places this program in cities where the black population and drop out rates is high which is in low-income communities. If students are choosing work over school because they need money AND they dont see themselves in the ciriculum then not only does the work need to change but also the incentive. School reflects society. It is in school that students learn the social hieracrhy in their society (reinforced by rewards standards and circiculum choices). If its not money then its, lets say, who receives the most gold stars this week. Who ever have five gets an ice cream party. Whats the difference. There are still haves and have nots. But when you live in harlem (or columbus ohio) like the woman in the segment who has to drive/walk/taxi and hour to get to a tomato, that ice cream party does more harm than good.
As for the hypothetical, I think it is slightly flawed because no child is in a contract to stay in school. If they were there wouldn't be a drop out rate and this program wouldn't be necessary. The thing is children (esp. not in the program) aren't seeing benefits of school which is why they are leaving. Not only do they have to spend time in school but they have spend additional time studying. It is not a coincidence that the age students are dropping out is working age (15, 16, high school age) because they can legally work.
Yes, if the stuents changes schools she/he would reap the monetary benefits. But the hope is, just like your allowance or the Barbies i received for good grades, that the monetray benefits they received in fourth grade they will except it to translate in to a lucrative job.Its about making a connections. Most people dont go to school simply because its fun, often times its because of money. "I will get my masters ot PhD because I know not only will I be more knowledgeable but I will get a 10,000 pay increase." kids is middle and upper class home recognize it at an early age, why cant we do something for the students who are in a runt and cant see the "scholastic" forrest for the "underclass" trees. There is not one solution for everyone, so we have take ALL of the circumstances in each section/region/school/hood and start making connections between school, students' present everyday lives and the futures they are having problems seeing clearly.
As for the hypothetical, I think it is slightly flawed because no child is in a contract to stay in school. If they were there wouldn't be a drop out rate and this program wouldn't be necessary. The thing is children (esp. not in the program) aren't seeing benefits of school which is why they are leaving. Not only do they have to spend time in school but they have spend additional time studying. It is not a coincidence that the age students are dropping out is working age (15, 16, high school age) because they can legally work.
Yes, if the stuents changes schools she/he would reap the monetary benefits. But the hope is, just like your allowance or the Barbies i received for good grades, that the monetray benefits they received in fourth grade they will except it to translate in to a lucrative job.Its about making a connections. Most people dont go to school simply because its fun, often times its because of money. "I will get my masters ot PhD because I know not only will I be more knowledgeable but I will get a 10,000 pay increase." kids is middle and upper class home recognize it at an early age, why cant we do something for the students who are in a runt and cant see the "scholastic" forrest for the "underclass" trees. There is not one solution for everyone, so we have take ALL of the circumstances in each section/region/school/hood and start making connections between school, students' present everyday lives and the futures they are having problems seeing clearly.
RESPONSE:
I would like to start this by saying that I am throughly enjoying this conversation. You have challenged my thinking in a way that is making my head work in overdrive. Do you mind if I share this convo with some of the people I go to school with? I would love to hear their perspective on our points.As for the hypothetical, after reading what you wrote I think I missed a part. I didn't see the part where the program was being initiated for students who were also about 16. I thought it was for upper elementary and middle school, so those are the groups of kids I am referring to. The contract portion was in reference to the fact that kids cannot officially drop out of school before the age of 16, so the are essentially locked into going to school. So he continues this program though gradation from HS? Does he teach them about money management? (actual questions to get more information, not sarcasm)I hear all of your points, and I am still thinking some of them over. But I was never a child who was "rewarded" monetarily nor with gifts for good grades, or chores. My family tried to drill in the point that these are things that we are supposed to do. This is the perspective that I am looking at this incentive initiative. I live in Harlem and I understand and see why such a program is beneficial and important. But what does this teach our kids? Will it still really teach them about what they are supposed to do and keep high levels of expectations for them? Should there be an money reward for coming to school (tried in NY and they are getting rid of that program), staying out of jail, no doing drugs. I'm not convinced that kids will develop the understanding that somethings are not right to do and that somethings don't need a reward. I'm no saying this would be the effect with all kids, but the ones that are doing well and getting the money are probably the kids that would have done well anyway but needed an extra push. I agree with incentive programs for these kids, but not that kind of money and not as often as they do it. As for the bed thing, I do believe kids would stop doing it (not all but some) Because in my house I am supposed to make the bed in the morning, did it in HS, I stopped sleeping on beds when I visit with my parents becasue I hate making the beds (lazy I know LOL!) But the premise is, I don't have to do it so why. I am afraid students will also develop a smilar attitude with school. You are right, there isn't a motivation for school right now, especially with all the racist testing, horrible curriculum, underfunding and lack of quality/qualified/certified teachers in school. I am coming at this from the angle that if these issues were worked on, students will develop the interest int learning. (as for the PH.D comment, I agree that a lot of people do it for more money, but The people in my program are not in it for a pay increase. We are in it to make a difference in education. sounds very trite and save the worldish I know, but it is true. For what I want to do I do not need a PH.D and I would get to my goal sooner if I didn't go through it.)schools mirror society as you said, but do the students need to experience these social structures as blutly as they are out there in society in school. For some kids school is a refuge, a place where they can get away from their reality. I love the way you verbalized the connections issue, this is something we discuss in classes a lot. there is a lack of connection to the real world for some/most kids. There are several education "scholars" that are trying to figure this out but i am kind of frustrated because the issue seems so clear to me. the way teachers talk to low SES students is deplorable. they talk to their students as thought there is no hope for them and that they are only in school because they have to be (students and teachers). A change in tone and direction is what all kids need. In upper middle class families, like you said, have a different understanding of what needs to be done to be successful. The teachers are their gatekeepers meaning they give these kids more and different information that is given to other kids. i believe this too needs to get changed (along with what your are saying about PHD programs etc.) this is where I see the most problems with education and why I have such a strong conviction about this initiative, it will work, these types of incentive programs often do, but I am still worried about all the other issues around education that this type of initiative cannot address and cannot fix. Education is designed for the white middle class kid, as are the assessments. Like you were saying about standards, all students are assessed and judged on these random generic standards. I feel that this guys initiative reinforces this. Practical, but I don't like this idea. Society has been getting more and more materialistic and capitalistic and I fear what will happen to kids. (remember when you learned something for a test. Do you remember it a week later? often times not, because it isn't real learning.) Also when I talked about kids moving I was referring to students who move from a reward school to a non reward school. What happens then? Again what happens to the kids that don't get the money because they didn't make the grade? As for the other reward systems you mentioned, they are similar but not money. Money is money and people respond to it differently than a star. I hear you, the two systems are analogous and have the same basic benefits and drawbacks.I read this in a book and thought it was interesting. the book was taking about education policy and leadership and had this image of a pink elephant in the room. Depending on your position in the room is the perspective in which you see the elephant. You cannot see entire elephant from one position in the room, so you need to mover around to get multiple perspectives.This elephant thing wasn't a preaching type of thing I was trying to illustrate that I see why an initiative like this is needed and why it works. So I moved to a nother position in the room and I am seeing other things that i didn't see from the first position on the room.
ME:
i am going to go through your responses and questions:
Do you mind if I share this convo with some of the people I go to school with?
That sounds great. No problem. It would interesting to see how it goes.
Do you mind if I share this convo with some of the people I go to school with?
That sounds great. No problem. It would interesting to see how it goes.
As for the hypothetical, after reading what you wrote I think I missed a part. I didn't see the part where the program was being initiated for students who were also about 16. I thought it was for upper elementary and middle school, so those are the groups of kids I am referring to.
African-centered pedagogy states that black students become disinterested in school in the 4th grade, which is why the money for grades program is using upper elementary students. Their detachment from school manifests in their dropping out of school later on, usually high school. That is what the program is trying to be prevented. Their dropping-out often happens when their 15, 16, high school age because that is when they can get a job legally. In other words, many students are just holding out in school until they can get a job and acquire the money they and their family need/want.
The contract portion was in reference to the fact that kids cannot officially drop out of school before the age of 16, so the are essentially locked into going to school. So he continues this program though gradation from HS? Does he teach them about money management? (actual questions to get more information, not sarcasm)
No one is locked into going to school. If so, no one would be dropping out. There are some drawbacks for dropping out early like not getting a license but that obviously isn't stopping the dropout rate. To my understanding he doesn't continue the money 4 grades program through HS.
And it would be great to teach them money management but the ultimate goal is to prevent the students from dropping out and for them to see the connection between money and education. Money management is another can of worms. Even adults/college students/ grandparents dont even know how to manage their money. Can't conquer everything at once and if they tried it simply wouldn’t be smart. Also money management is also a middle class issue. If you dont have discretionary/extra income then there isn't anything to manage. If all your money is going to food and rent what is there to manage? That is one of the issues of being poor. And that is the type of students in the program. We have to get out of middle/upper class thinking. The issue isn’t what angle we look at the pink elephant it’s what lenses are we using. The lense determines our perception. After of realize we are using, classist, racist, sexist, ageist, and/or gender-bias glasses, and check ourselves, then we can start circling the elephant and make some real-life evaluations and holistic, well-informed decisions. Always using a middle class (assuming what worked for us will work from someone else) is ethnocentric and extremely problematic when we are trying to solve issues for people who did not grow up the way we did. Its important.
I hear all of your points, and I am still thinking some of them over. But I was never a child who was "rewarded" monetarily nor with gifts for good grades, or chores. My family tried to drill in the point that these are things that we are supposed to do. This is the perspective that I am looking at this incentive initiative.
But they didn't need to give you incentive it was staring you in the face. You grew up in a middle class home (I’m assuming your parents or people in your family went to college. correct me if I’m wrong. Or at least you saw the fruit of hard labor). You lived the benefits of a college education. You knew, saw, lived to possibilities of an education. What would have happened if you didn’t? If even the examples you did see (on tv in books etc) felt so out of reach that they didnt...i couldnt motivate you to do better in school? I have students who come to school hungry but see the drug dealer eating steak. I have girls who know they will have their own place in the projects or subsidized homes if only they have a child because you can’t get the housing, food stamps, Medicaid etc unless you are disabled or have kids. These are the people they see every day. Most likely not what we saw daily. It is extremely challenging to convince a child (my middle school students) to not get involved in the drug game (because they are too young to get a job anywhere else) not eat and live in poverty for about 5, 6, 7 more years so that maybe they can go to college (keep their grades up or they will have to pay) and hopefully get a job and THEN they can have some steak. In the mean time, they are hunger. Literally. And as they walk to school everyday, they are smell the New York strip beef and A1 sauce. Intrinsic award cant, WONT always top that. We have to try other things. Money for grades is one.
I live in Harlem and I understand and see why such a program is beneficial and important. But what does this teach our kids? Will it still really teach them about what they are supposed to do and keep high levels of expectations for them? Should there be an money reward for coming to school (tried in NY and they are getting rid of that program), staying out of jail, no doing drugs.
I think you are making it too complicated. If that was something being proposed in the money for grades program then that is something to discuss but its not. When we give hypothetical like paying people to stay out of jail is an attempt to make this one program more complicated that it is. Its rather simple. But if this plan works then hopefully all those other things will fall into place. I believe it was said in the segment that college educated or simply educated people are less likely to do drugs, have a criminal record etc. Also if students see the connection between a good livelihood and education then the goal is that they will go to school because they know there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
I'm not convinced that kids will develop the understanding that somethings are not right to do and that somethings don't need a reward. I'm no saying this would be the effect with all kids, but the ones that are doing well and getting the money are probably the kids that would have done well anyway but needed an extra push. I agree with incentive programs for these kids, but not that kind of money and not as often as they do it.
I think there is a problem with assuming. You are assuming the students that are doing well was doing well before. You don’t know that. Over 10% of the prison population is gifted. So there is a good chance that a percentage of the students that drop-out are brilliant but there are extenuating circumstances that push them to leave school. There were students that were failing math but could change kilos of crack to dollars in minutes. There were students that were failing math but could explain to me the mathematic involved in the circumference of cars rims in relation to the type of car you have. These students know. They are brilliant! We just need to keep them in school so they can discover just how brilliant they are. AND hopefully satisfy their monetary needs. A big issue that is pushing them out. Years ago, 50, 60+ years ago black people were dropping out of school then. Why? Because their parents were sharecroppers, and if they didn’t get the seeds planted and harvested in time and pay their share to the white landowner, they were kicked off the land. Today its not much difference. How do keep the student home and in school? The under lying factor is money.
As for the bed thing, I do believe kids would stop doing it (not all but some) Because in my house I am supposed to make the bed in the morning, did it in HS, I stopped sleeping on beds when I visit with my parents becasue I hate making the beds (lazy I know LOL!) But the premise is, I don't have to do it so why. I am afraid students will also develop a similar attitude with school.
And they may. But even though you may say you are lazy, the goal of making your bed was not hard-work. The goal was cleanliness. If the goal was hard-work then your parents may have had you make everyone’s bed in the house or make your bed over and over again in the same day. But that wasn’t the goal. You may argue that you still aren’t that clean (I don’t know, just sayin) but I’m sure you understand what it means and says about someone who has a clean house (with a made bed). If you didn’t you wouldn’t think you were, lazy, unclean or anything else. You wouldn’t even think about it. You wouldn’t have a frame of reference because it wasn’t something you had to do. But the fact that you understand it is a neat thing to have your bed made is a large part of the goal your parents taught you. Its your choice to continue the chore. That’s the goal of the money for grades program. The goal is for students to recognize the link. Since education is tied to their livelihoods (unlike making their beds) the motivation to continue would ideally be stronger.
You are right, there isn't a motivation for school right now, especially with all the racist testing, horrible curriculum, underfunding and lack of quality/qualified/certified teachers in school. I am coming at this from the angle that if these issues were worked on, students will develop the interest int learning.
Again an assumption. Its easy to say that when a child has no other worries: where is my next meal coming from? We don’t have any money to wash clothes and kids keep picking on me. My mother/ father/ foster parent/grandmother else is abusing me. The lights are off again, how will I do my home work tonight especially since I have to babysit my little brother and sister until my mom gets home at 10pm. I have had students say such things to me. How do convince such a child to finish his algebra or be sure to type that essay by tomorrow ( I know you don’t have a computer just use the one in library…oh but you have babysit your siblings. Guess your hand-written essay will be scored less than you peers who types theirs). Why is it when students what to come to my after-school art/history class they have to bring their siblings too because they are responsible for them at 12 years old? How about we work on those issues. Are simply RECOGNIZE these extra issues and how they effects students in school. We have to get out of our MIDDLE CLASS thinking. We MUST remove the classist-ethnocentric lenses if we are EVER to move students forward. But we have to recognize that we have on the glasses first.
(as for the PH.D comment, I agree that a lot of people do it for more money, but The people in my program are not in it for a pay increase. We are in it to make a difference in education. sounds very trite and save the worldish I know, but it is true. For what I want to do I do not need a PH.D and I would get to my goal sooner if I didn't go through it.)
That’s fantastic but everyone isn’t like that. And everyone isn’t you. I sure you recognize that on the surface but maybe not internally. Especially if we often think people will think like us using the same method used on us (such as long as we keep drilling students about the importance of school they will eventually believe us). Even with your PhD program, you might not get a pay increase but one would argue that you would do your job better which equates to better quality work from you, which would equal job stability. If Florida was anything like Ohio, with that extra education, when jobs cuts come around, your extra education will save your livelihood. Education =money = better and sustained quality of life.
schools mirror society as you said, but do the students need to experience these social structures as blutly as they are out there in society in school.
They already experience it. We aren’t telling them anything new.
For some kids school is a refuge, a place where they can get away from their reality.
That’s the problem. School is too far from reality which is why students are detaching from the curriculum and not returning to school. It can be a refuge as far as maybe having lunch and other things but they still go home everyday. School needs to prepare students when they get home and leave the school.
A change in tone and direction is what all kids need.
They need much more than that. They get lip service all the time: teachers, tv, social worker etc. When something actually going to get done in the present.
but I am still worried about all the other issues around education that this type of initiative cannot address and cannot fix.
It’s not designed to fix everything. Nothing is. Its multiple things that have to work together. For example, There are people who were/are smart got thousands of dollars in scholarships for college and blew it all on whatever (liquor shopping whatever). Someone could argue that they should go through a budgeting class before they go to college and before they get their scholarship money. But that’s not the school’s goal. Their goal is not to teach them how to handle their money its rewarding them for their good work. A) What the difference between scholarships and the money for grades program? B) the school/foundation/organization or who ever gave the student money is not trying to cover all the possible bases that deal with the students reward. It would be absolutely great it they did but tell that to University of Florida, Ohio State, Alpha Kappa Alpha or anyone else who gives out scholarships a.k.a money for grades. Its not their goal. What they can do is point the students is another direction of a program/organization etc that does help students budget funds. Everybody has a separate role. Nobody can or should try to handle all issues at once and people that think it can happen often are not being very realistic.
Society has been getting more and more materialistic and capitalistic
Some would argue that it would be nice if we lived in a socialist country but we don’t its capitalist. And by teaching students that if that get an education that can acquire more money is a capitalist concept. More skills = more wealth/more capital, i.e. capitalism. Even by wishing that students have an innate desire to learn we would disappointed if they remained poor and read books all day. We would hope that they would become all that they can be CEO, entrepreneur, multi-millionaire…a capitalist. We live in capitalist system which is why these students are trying to be pushed to the bottom of the social, economic, and political latter. Capitalism doesn’t work unless a large group of people are at the bottom (the lower or "underclass”). So it is our job to teach them the society he live in and beat the odds in this capitalist world and understand the relationship between money, education, and society.
and I fear what will happen to kids. (remember when you learned something for a test. Do you remember it a week later? often times not, because it isn't real learning.)
That’s another assumption. African centered pedagogy says that as long as you relate the work/test to the students they will remember. That goes back to curriculum changes that reflect the students’ lives.
Also when I talked about kids moving I was referring to students who move from a reward school to a non reward school. What happens then?
We don’t know. All we can do is hope for the best. What happens when you leave a higher paying job for a lower one? Hope for the best. The program is designed for the students that stay at the school. You can’t account for the other students. It’s like you creating history curriculum on blacks in the civil war because you have majority black students who didn’t know anything about the subject and were really interested in it. But five of your students had to change a history class which is teaching European medieval pottery. Did you create a curriculum that took into account students that would be leaving you class? No, you created it based on the students that would be there. It would be great if they could stay and you knew it would be beneficial to them but that simply isn’t how things played out. So you can either worry about the students that left or really put all of your energy in the students you still have. I pick the latter.
We don’t know. All we can do is hope for the best. What happens when you leave a higher paying job for a lower one? Hope for the best. The program is designed for the students that stay at the school. You can’t account for the other students. It’s like you creating history curriculum on blacks in the civil war because you have majority black students who didn’t know anything about the subject and were really interested in it. But five of your students had to change a history class which is teaching European medieval pottery. Did you create a curriculum that took into account students that would be leaving you class? No, you created it based on the students that would be there. It would be great if they could stay and you knew it would be beneficial to them but that simply isn’t how things played out. So you can either worry about the students that left or really put all of your energy in the students you still have. I pick the latter.
Again what happens to the kids that don't get the money because they didn't make the grade? As for the other reward systems you mentioned, they are similar but not money. Money is money and people respond to it differently than a star.
Which is why the hope is that the students respond by staying in school and making the connection between money and education.
I hear you, the two systems are analogous and have the same basic benefits and drawbacks.
So why not choose the one with a variety of benefits and reflect the real-life lesson the students are in contact with already.
RESPONSE:
Wow Melissa! You have made me think of this in a new light. I feel as thought the things you mentioned are so clear as day. I know this guy is doing the program in NY and I think that I will try to scope it out when I get back and see how things unfold. I still have my reservations but you most def helped me see the elephant through a new lens and I feel as though I have moved to a different part of the elephant. What is most insulting is that some of the things you mentioned are some of the things that brought me back to school, and I couldn't see them when thinking of this initiative. I'm pissed with myself. My purpose in school is to help kids that are marginalized and left out in the white middle class school by looking at and eventually creating a culturally responsive school. This is what my research is going to be focused around. Can you send me some of the information of African Centered Pedagogy. I remember having students similar to yours and I as heartbroken because I had not idea what to do about it and there weren't many things in place at the school level to help kids with clean clothes, hunger, etc. Over time I figured out some things that I could do, but still I don't feel that it was enough. Your response to my issue with school issues underfunding, overcrowdedness, etc. really had me thinking. Am I being to idealistic? Although you said it was an assumption of mine to believe working on these things would help motivate kids, I agree whole heartedly, but I think it is worth a shot. You provided me wit the lens of looking at this initiative through the lens of the family and student, a very important lens, I feel like I have bifocals now. The assumption about the kids doing well in the program were doing well before wasn't what I was saying. I was saying that the kids that are doing well no in the program are smart students who needed an extra push to really do well. Extra push being an incentive. I have had students who were boarder line but once they got an extra push they took off. I have had others that made significant improvements, but are still so far behind. Drop out: Technically kids cannot officially drop out before the age of 15 or 16 can't remember now. All sorts of people are sent out looking for the kids etc. granted this is theoretical, but it is what should be happening. We both know that it doesn't, but I wanted to put it into the hypothetical. This convo was great because we were both looking at the same issue through different lenses and different angles. I want to reread everything we have said and think about it and look at what we have said though my new bifocals.
Always using a middle class (assuming what worked for us will work from someone else) is ethnocentric and extremely problematic when we are trying to solve issues for people who did not grow up the way we did. Its important.
This is such and important issue. Though my career in education and education programs this has been a huge frustration and as you said problematic. off the topic of this incentive program, with the teaching force so dominated by white middle class women what could and should be done about this? I have been struggling with this in my research, practice, and life in general and when this topic comes up I usually don't have much to say because I don't know what to do or say about it. I can't expect a person that has never interacted with people different than them to have and understanding of the issues surrounding them or take themselves out of their reality.I don't know which topic this relates to but, since I got to UF I had issue with the way I was educated and the way others were. I was fortunate to go to a really good private school where the conversations in classes, college prep, and college advisory was so different than some of the people around me. I don't feel this is right. Even from pub. school to public school convos. are so different. I often feel that the upper mid, and upper class people have all of this knowledge and they do what they can to keep it to themselves and not share it with others and that shit pisses me off. i dream of some sort of a time where schools are not so vastly different (now talking about pub. schools) and students have the same basic opportunities and experiences. Utopic, probably, but I want to try to help in some way. Will this happen any time soon, Def. not prob not in our life time, but I think it is worth a shot. What do you think of my utopia?
ME:
What is most insulting is that some of the things you mentioned are some of the things that brought me back to school, and I couldn't see them when thinking of this initiative. I'm pissed with myself. My purpose in school is to help kids that are marginalized and left out in the white middle class school by looking at and eventually creating a culturally responsive school. This is what my research is going to be focused around.
It is easy and pretty intuitive to look at things the way we always have. We don’t know what we don’t know. But once we do know, what do we do about it. And if you do nothing, then that is when we should be pissed at ourselves. It’s hard when we see the problems with white middle class standards but we grew up in them and were judged by them and judged ourselves by them. It much more normal to us than we would like to think. It can be (is) challenging to step out of our skin and be as objective as possible but we really have to try. I commend you for trying on some new glasses. Now we have to ask ourselves what we going to do with our new vision and how are going to help other to trade in their glasses for some bifocals?
Can you send me some of the information of African Centered Pedagogy.
Two really good books are Countering the Conspiracy to Destroy Black Boys by Jawanza Kunjufu. He has written tons of other books but I was drawn to this one because of Langston. He talks about education issues and over all social issues. I’ve heard great things about him from Afrocentric people. At the very least, it gives a new perspective that isn’t getting taught to teachers. Its a rather short book so you can get through it rather quickly. And African-Centered Pedagogy: Developing Schools of Achievement for African American Children (The Social Context of Education) by Peter C. Murrell Jr..I believe he is out of Northwestern. At least when this book was published. And The MisEducation of the Negro by Carter G. Woodson. Extremely powerful and I haven’t even finished it yet. It is also a short book and interestingly written in the 1930 but is unfortunately still relevant today.
I remember having students similar to yours and I as heartbroken because I had not idea what to do about it and there weren't many things in place at the school level to help kids with clean clothes, hunger, etc. Over time I figured out some things that I could do, but still I don't feel that it was enough. Your response to my issue with school issues underfunding, overcrowdedness, etc. really had me thinking. Am I being to idealistic?
I think it is idealistic people that are the only people who can make some really change. But the ability to be realistic with logistics of execution and a strong understand of the target audience (the children) is extremely necessary. Once idealism is coupled with realism things will happen organically. But we really need the realism. We have to understand the kids and get out of our own world.
Although you said it was an assumption of mine to believe working on these things would help motivate kids, I agree whole heartedly, but I think it is worth a shot.
I think just about anything is worth a shot, but if we have social, economic issues staring us in the face but we so desired for students to have a deep desire to learn on their own (or to think like us) who are we benefiting? The students or our own hopes and desires? We could be directing our energy towards the intrinsic goals but in the mean time we neglected or didn’t put as must passion and energy into the issues at hand that we end up doing a disservice to the students. We have all remember who are we doing this for? Sometimes it can be for our own happiness. When we realize that it can be a hard pill to swallow but we need to swallow it and hit the ground running.
Always using a middle class (assuming what worked for us will work from someone else) is ethnocentric and extremely problematic when we are trying to solve issues for people who did not grow up the way we did. Its important.This is such and important issue. Though my career in education and education programs this has been a huge frustration and as you said problematic. off the topic of this incentive program, with the teaching force so dominated by white middle class women what could and should be done about this?
What has helped me is making an effort to read and talk to people who work on the ground level. Grassroots efforts and controversial people. They often think outside of the box and probably didn’t have a traditional education if they were education at all. Often people who deem themselves Afrocentric. The interesting thing about Afrocentricity is that the concepts can really be applied anywhere. For example, with Jawanza Kunjufu. Some people love him. Some people hate him. Mostly because he is attacking the white collective ethos/white middle class standards that are being shoved down are kids throats. Therefore, in a Eurocentric society that reinforces Eurocentric ideals in their university school systems, you are most likely not going to find someone who is in direct opposition to the system on a PhD book list. We have to venture outside of the curriculum handed it to us because if we rely on that, then we are just going to repeat the same or similar reactions of our white counterparts. Why? Because we readin the same books they readin and we both are coming with the same wrong answers.
I have been struggling with this in my research, practice, and life in general and when this topic comes up I usually don't have much to say because I don't know what to do or say about it. I can't expect a person that has never interacted with people different than them to have and understanding of the issues surrounding them or take themselves out of their reality.
We have to keep reading keep talking to people and the students and it will come to us but we have to make efforts in areas, places, books that we normally would not have. I feel your frustration. I had to just starting talking to people. New York is full of fantastic grassroots effort. That is the place to be. You have to go searching. I don't know which topic this relates to but, since I got to UF I had issue with the way I was educated and the way others were. I was fortunate to go to a really good private school where the conversations in classes, college prep, and college advisory was so different than some of the people around me. I don't feel this is right. Even from pub. school to public school convos. are so different.
I feel this is a problem with the teachers. When I was subbing, the teachers didn’t raise the expectation level because they didn’t believe they could reach it. Teachers have to believe in their students. Unfortunately you cant teach that.
I often feel that the upper mid, and upper class people have all of this knowledge and they do what they can to keep it to themselves and not share it with others and that shit pisses me off.
Its all apart of capitalism. The idea is you can’t give everyone equal education. You HAVE TO HAVE an underclass. That is why the system is set up the way it is. No coincidences. But we have to know the system (capitalism, gentrification, property taxes and school funding curriculum formation (for teachers and students) etc) in order to start making some solutions.
i dream of some sort of a time where schools are not so vastly different (now talking about pub. schools) and students have the same basic opportunities and experiences. Utopic, probably, but I want to try to help in some way. Will this happen any time soon, Def. not prob not in our life time, but I think it is worth a shot. What do you think of my utopia?
It is easy and pretty intuitive to look at things the way we always have. We don’t know what we don’t know. But once we do know, what do we do about it. And if you do nothing, then that is when we should be pissed at ourselves. It’s hard when we see the problems with white middle class standards but we grew up in them and were judged by them and judged ourselves by them. It much more normal to us than we would like to think. It can be (is) challenging to step out of our skin and be as objective as possible but we really have to try. I commend you for trying on some new glasses. Now we have to ask ourselves what we going to do with our new vision and how are going to help other to trade in their glasses for some bifocals?
Can you send me some of the information of African Centered Pedagogy.
Two really good books are Countering the Conspiracy to Destroy Black Boys by Jawanza Kunjufu. He has written tons of other books but I was drawn to this one because of Langston. He talks about education issues and over all social issues. I’ve heard great things about him from Afrocentric people. At the very least, it gives a new perspective that isn’t getting taught to teachers. Its a rather short book so you can get through it rather quickly. And African-Centered Pedagogy: Developing Schools of Achievement for African American Children (The Social Context of Education) by Peter C. Murrell Jr..I believe he is out of Northwestern. At least when this book was published. And The MisEducation of the Negro by Carter G. Woodson. Extremely powerful and I haven’t even finished it yet. It is also a short book and interestingly written in the 1930 but is unfortunately still relevant today.
I remember having students similar to yours and I as heartbroken because I had not idea what to do about it and there weren't many things in place at the school level to help kids with clean clothes, hunger, etc. Over time I figured out some things that I could do, but still I don't feel that it was enough. Your response to my issue with school issues underfunding, overcrowdedness, etc. really had me thinking. Am I being to idealistic?
I think it is idealistic people that are the only people who can make some really change. But the ability to be realistic with logistics of execution and a strong understand of the target audience (the children) is extremely necessary. Once idealism is coupled with realism things will happen organically. But we really need the realism. We have to understand the kids and get out of our own world.
Although you said it was an assumption of mine to believe working on these things would help motivate kids, I agree whole heartedly, but I think it is worth a shot.
I think just about anything is worth a shot, but if we have social, economic issues staring us in the face but we so desired for students to have a deep desire to learn on their own (or to think like us) who are we benefiting? The students or our own hopes and desires? We could be directing our energy towards the intrinsic goals but in the mean time we neglected or didn’t put as must passion and energy into the issues at hand that we end up doing a disservice to the students. We have all remember who are we doing this for? Sometimes it can be for our own happiness. When we realize that it can be a hard pill to swallow but we need to swallow it and hit the ground running.
Always using a middle class (assuming what worked for us will work from someone else) is ethnocentric and extremely problematic when we are trying to solve issues for people who did not grow up the way we did. Its important.This is such and important issue. Though my career in education and education programs this has been a huge frustration and as you said problematic. off the topic of this incentive program, with the teaching force so dominated by white middle class women what could and should be done about this?
What has helped me is making an effort to read and talk to people who work on the ground level. Grassroots efforts and controversial people. They often think outside of the box and probably didn’t have a traditional education if they were education at all. Often people who deem themselves Afrocentric. The interesting thing about Afrocentricity is that the concepts can really be applied anywhere. For example, with Jawanza Kunjufu. Some people love him. Some people hate him. Mostly because he is attacking the white collective ethos/white middle class standards that are being shoved down are kids throats. Therefore, in a Eurocentric society that reinforces Eurocentric ideals in their university school systems, you are most likely not going to find someone who is in direct opposition to the system on a PhD book list. We have to venture outside of the curriculum handed it to us because if we rely on that, then we are just going to repeat the same or similar reactions of our white counterparts. Why? Because we readin the same books they readin and we both are coming with the same wrong answers.
I have been struggling with this in my research, practice, and life in general and when this topic comes up I usually don't have much to say because I don't know what to do or say about it. I can't expect a person that has never interacted with people different than them to have and understanding of the issues surrounding them or take themselves out of their reality.
We have to keep reading keep talking to people and the students and it will come to us but we have to make efforts in areas, places, books that we normally would not have. I feel your frustration. I had to just starting talking to people. New York is full of fantastic grassroots effort. That is the place to be. You have to go searching. I don't know which topic this relates to but, since I got to UF I had issue with the way I was educated and the way others were. I was fortunate to go to a really good private school where the conversations in classes, college prep, and college advisory was so different than some of the people around me. I don't feel this is right. Even from pub. school to public school convos. are so different.
I feel this is a problem with the teachers. When I was subbing, the teachers didn’t raise the expectation level because they didn’t believe they could reach it. Teachers have to believe in their students. Unfortunately you cant teach that.
I often feel that the upper mid, and upper class people have all of this knowledge and they do what they can to keep it to themselves and not share it with others and that shit pisses me off.
Its all apart of capitalism. The idea is you can’t give everyone equal education. You HAVE TO HAVE an underclass. That is why the system is set up the way it is. No coincidences. But we have to know the system (capitalism, gentrification, property taxes and school funding curriculum formation (for teachers and students) etc) in order to start making some solutions.
i dream of some sort of a time where schools are not so vastly different (now talking about pub. schools) and students have the same basic opportunities and experiences. Utopic, probably, but I want to try to help in some way. Will this happen any time soon, Def. not prob not in our life time, but I think it is worth a shot. What do you think of my utopia?
You are talking about socialism and that was the plight of the Black Power Movement. Making everything equal and we see what happened with that. Murdering of Black Panthers and other Black Power movement activists many were excommunicated and/or thrown in jail (many still are in jail) called communist etc (and actually communism talks a lot about making everything equal which is why so many Blacks were deemed communists like WEB DuBois and others). This country (and most of the world) is built on capitalism. I don’t believe that means accept it and I don’t think we should thinks that it won’t ever change but teaching our students to prefer or work in a socialist (utopian) society does not help them when they enter into the world. We should teach them what socialism is, but make sure they understand that there are serious boundaries that comes with being who they are: black male, low-income, gay, black female, disabled, having a felon etc. then they can know the system in place AND have an understanding of new systems. They have to know the current system in order to challenge it. WE have to know the system inorder to challenge it. And they have to know the other options in order to know what a different outcome can be. But we first have to teach ourselves.
RESPONSE:
I have the miseducation of the negro, haven't gotten to it yet.I had a class with a prof. who feels he strives for social justice and feels that we need to be well versed in issues concerning other people, people different than us, and people below the poverty line (yes he is white) We were talking in class at the end of the semester wrap up and I made a comment that it was interesting that we read a bunch of texts about social issues concerning Black people and none of the authors where Black. There were two minorities, Asian and woman. After I said it, he stopped and thought about it and said he has to revisit how he will teach the class. I met a prof. from ohio (i think. Geneva Gay) and she insisted that I do my research on the authors that we read in class and insist that I bring it up. and as you said, do more research and read up on authors who are Black.If I go to jail for fear that I am a communist and because I am pumping socialism, will you come visit me?My feeling hasen't changed, I don't like reality. Therefore I will do as you said, combine my ideal/utopia with the reality of the kids I serve and in the school that I develop!Thanks again for the enlightenment.
ME:
Of course I'll visit you and I'll hold a rally outside of the jail for your freedom!
I have also heard of Na'im Akbar who wrote "Brothers of the Academy: Up and Coming Black Scholars Earning Our Way in Higher Education" (with Lee Jones) and "From Miseducation to Education." The VERY large problem I have with writing like these are that they focus on the Black male and consistantly minimize, gloss over, or completely neglect black girls. There books out there on young girls but really here alot about these two gentlemen. We really got to look our girls too.
Oh as a side note. Another problem is looking at all types of Black people. An African child may have a different experience that a Caribbean child who will not experience education the same as an African American child. The African child who isn't learning African history may feel just as neglected as an African American child in a eurocentric school. Africans often dont view themselves as African and most of the ones I have met really don't want to associate themselves with Black Americans. That is another can of worms, but in a place like NY, I could see how these issues would occur and be a breeding ground for diversity. Even more so, the diversity among Blacks that is often ignored.
This was a great conversation and I would like to hear if you get involved in some NY black youth programs.
Talk to you later
I have also heard of Na'im Akbar who wrote "Brothers of the Academy: Up and Coming Black Scholars Earning Our Way in Higher Education" (with Lee Jones) and "From Miseducation to Education." The VERY large problem I have with writing like these are that they focus on the Black male and consistantly minimize, gloss over, or completely neglect black girls. There books out there on young girls but really here alot about these two gentlemen. We really got to look our girls too.
Oh as a side note. Another problem is looking at all types of Black people. An African child may have a different experience that a Caribbean child who will not experience education the same as an African American child. The African child who isn't learning African history may feel just as neglected as an African American child in a eurocentric school. Africans often dont view themselves as African and most of the ones I have met really don't want to associate themselves with Black Americans. That is another can of worms, but in a place like NY, I could see how these issues would occur and be a breeding ground for diversity. Even more so, the diversity among Blacks that is often ignored.
This was a great conversation and I would like to hear if you get involved in some NY black youth programs.
Talk to you later
No comments:
Post a Comment